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I gave up on all this and switched to MIDI Designer Pro. In there I’ve created editor Layouts that not only allow me to edit, but that also update the on-screen controls automatically when I change patches from the MKS-80. It also allows me to store and recall patches outside of the synth.
It’s all much, much easier.
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This reply was modified 3 years, 9 months ago by
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This reply was modified 3 years, 9 months ago by .
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.
All working now!
The MKS-70 was set to disallow Program Change messages. All sorted now.
I can’t tell you how grateful I am for all your help and advice. If you can get a PM to me I’ll send you a couple of CDs as a thank you.
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.
Yes, I do have the 32 internal bank (flash module?) upgrade as well (when I decided to go for the upgrade I decided to go for the whole shebang!). Maybe that is the thing making the difference, as you say. FWIW I collected this in a discussion with Fred:
Is it possible to change the flash bank number from midi message? I have a few sounds spread across multiple banks and need to switch between them across the song.
Fred: Yes, you can send a midi control message (bank select 0x00), parameter is 0..15 (M1024 external cartridge) or 16..47 (flash module).I’m not sure whether this is relevant – I would have thought that your librarian should get a good response for a bank dump request, regardless of which bank is currently in play.
Anyway, I’m happy to be your guinea pig, if you need one.
I also don’t get the BCR-2000 thing. A physical controller is fine, but with the additional parameters of a V4 MKS you need some visual cues to help you navigate, and even an overlay isn’t going to help in that respect.
I’ve put my own toe in the water with MIDI Designer Pro – I’ve managed to sweep the cut-off and resonance from an X-Y pad… :o)
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.
Thought I’d give you the courtesy of a follow-up,,,
What can I say? Thank you so much for this panel!
It really does make all the difference to the Vecoven upgrade. The upgrade makes the MKS-70 the synth it always should have been and your Ctrlr panel makes it actually USABLE. The layout is excellent, and it is legible, even to these tired old eyes. So clever to be able to invert the envelope displays.
I’ll admit I’m baffled by the librarian – I’ve tried to load banks in, but all it has done is wipe what was there and the MKS-70 does nothing in response, apart a quick blink of its MIDI light. I also don’t see how to load the panel with the current Patch from the MKS-70. This is in standalone mode, of course.
The main thing to say is well done, and a huge THANKS! I’m in your debt.
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.
I assure you that I do understand, but I absolutely *don’t* want to make the ports unavailable to Cubase. And I most definitely *do* want to use MIDI Device Manager. Without MDM I have to remember ports and I have too many to be mucking around like that. Plus once Ctrlr has control of the port I can’t use a second MIDI Track to access the port that Ctrlr has commandeered.
It really doesn’t work for me. I’m happier with the solution I have.
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.
Thanks for the advice.
Option 2 is a non-starter for me, as I explained above. I can’t have Ctrlr taking MIDI ports away from Cubase. It means I can’t name instruments in MIDI Device Manager, and it means I can’t use multiple tracks addressing a single port.
Option 1 is something my brain has toyed with, but I’ve put it aside for the moment. The specific panel I need to use (MKS-70 V4) relies on MIDI Controllers, rather than sysex, so I should be fine using Ctrlr as-is.
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.
TBH the reason I first bought an MKS-70 *was* as a rack-mounting JX-8P (which it replaced)! I’ve never needed it to be any more than that. The doubled voice count was (and remains) a huge plus, and I’d trade that for dual Tones every time.
When I first discovered the horrors of shared Tones I knew I was never going to use them. From that point my MKS-70 has remained one Patch, one Tone. I’ve actually met a few other owners who’ve done the same. Interestingly, the JP-80×0 finally did things properly and gave us independent Tones within Patches, but with the System 8 Roland back-pedalled to shared Tones again, which is crazy IMO!
If I ever felt the need to use a dual Tone sound I could use one of the 14 last Patch locations and only layer unedited Tones. I can’t see me doing that, though.
I may use Ctrtr in standalone up to a point, but I often send small song-specific adjustments to my synths in Cubase. I will call up a preset, then have Cubase make a couple of adjustments on playback. It means I don’t have to save every small adjustment as a new Tone/Patch. I don’t want to have to leap in and out of Cubase to make these edits on the fly.
It would be very difficult to exploit the new abilities of V4 without an editor. I’m really looking forward to making use of my V4 and your excellent panel!
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.
I only work with single Tones to a Patch, because I hate the Tone sharing system. The way I do it is that Tone 07 lives in Patch A7 and is never referenced outside of it; Tone 26 lives in Patch D2, etc. This is the way I’ve always used my MKS-70s – it keeps me sane! If I have to make Patch edits then I can use the front panel – by far the most complex editing is to a Tone.
I also don’t think that I need the librarian – I will save Tones and Patches to the MKS-70’s own storage system (I have the M-1024C 16-bank cartridge). Occasionally I will back up to a sysex file, but I don’t need a librarian to do that for me.
I don’t want to dedicate a port to Ctrlr, because when I don’t want to use Ctrlr (and the vast majority of the time I won’t) then I’ll have to remember that my V4 MKS-70 is on MIDI Express box 2, Port 6 – at the moment I can assign that relationship in MIDI Device Manager and choose ‘MKS-70 B’ by name in Cubase’s output selection list – that’s why MDM exists, after all. Plus, once Ctrlr has hold of the port I can’t access it from any other Cubase Tracks, and I may have alternative/additional Tracks needing to play the same instrument.
In summary I *think* (there’s probably something I haven’t considered, I bet!) I will be fine. All I need now is for my V4 to arrive ready to go.
I may raise this sysex filtering by Cubase with Steinberg – a fairly pointless task, given their history of responses, but nothing to lose…
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.
I only work with single Tones to a Patch, because I hate the Tone sharing system. The way I do it is that Tone 07 lives in Patch A7 and is never referenced outside of it; Tone 26 lives in Patch D2, etc. This is the way I’ve always used my MKS-70s – it keeps me sane! If I have to make Patch edits then I can use the front panel – by far the most complex editing is to a Tone.
I also don’t think that I need the librarian – I will save Tones and Patches to the MKS-70’s own storage system (I have the M-1024C 16-bank cartridge). Occasionally I will back up to a sysex file, but I don’t need a librarian to do that for me.
I don’t want to dedicate a port to Ctrlr, because when I don’t want to use Ctrlr (and the vast majority of the time I won’t) then I’ll have to remember that my V4 MKS-70 is on MIDI Express box 2, Port 6 – at the moment I can assign that relationship in MIDI Device Manager and choose ‘MKS-70 B’ by name in Cubase’s output selection list – that’s why MDM exists, after all. Plus, once Ctrlr has hold of the port I can’t access it from any other Cubase Tracks, and I may have alternative/additional Tracks needing to play the same instrument.
In summary I *think* (there’s probably something I haven’t considered, I bet!) I will be fine. All I need now is for my V4 to arrive ready to go.
I may raise this sysex filtering by Cubase with Steinberg – a fairly pointless task, given their history of responses, but nothing to lose…
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.
I only work with single Tones to a Patch, because I hate the Tone sharing system. The way I do it is that Tone 07 lives in Patch A7 and is never referenced outside of it; Tone 26 lives in Patch D2, etc. This is the way I’ve always used my MKS-70s – it keeps me sane! If I have to make Patch edits then I can use the front panel – by far the most complex editing is to a Tone.
I also don’t think that I need the librarian – I will save Tones and Patches to the MKS-70’s own storage system (I have the M-1024C 16-bank cartridge). Occasionally I will back up to a sysex file, but I don’t need a librarian to do that for me.
I don’t want to dedicate a port to Ctrlr, because when I don’t want to use Ctrlr (and the vast majority of the time I won’t) then I’ll have to remember that my V4 MKS-70 is on MIDI Express box 2, Port 6 – at the moment I can assign that relationship in MIDI Device Manager and choose ‘MKS-70 B’ by name in Cubase’s output selection list – that’s why MDM exists, after all. Plus, once Ctrlr has hold of the port I can’t access it from any other Cubase Tracks, and I may have alternative/additional Tracks needing to play the same instrument.
In summary I *think* (there’s probably something I haven’t considered, I bet!) I will be fine. All I need now is for my V4 to arrive ready to go.
I may raise this sysex filtering by Cubase with Steinberg – a fairly pointless task, given their history of responses, but nothing to lose…
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.
Bingo! Sudden realisation!!!
V4 MKS-70 has, I *think*, all MIDI Controller number allocations for editing – not sysex. With that in mind I tried the simple host in/host out option with the V4 panel, just to test (I’m hoping the new synth will be here in a couple of weeks) and… it works! Well, at least I can see that the controller data is making it to the MIDI port.
The panel I’ve been testing with (MKS-80, because I have a couple of those) is generating sysex, and it was this that was being blocked by Cubase.
Phew! Looks like I have a solution. Many, many thanks to all here who have given their help. I do appreciate it. Hopefully I can come back to this thread and report that all is fine once the synth lands with me – it actually did land once, but the PWM mod was futzed, but that’s another story…
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.
fyi I made some other experiments in Cubase:
Input from Host does work, no problems there. Output to Host: make a second track selecting the Ctrlr ouput as input . Unfortunately Cubase will only pass program and control changes to this new track – NO sysex! Therefore this is no option either. The only way in Cubase is to set the port on Midi output of the Ctrlr plugin. Cubase can access the synth through the Ctrlr plugin by selecting thru option “host to output”. This works nicely on my setup. Of course you will have to dedicate a port for the synth (no daisy chaining). But daisy chanining using Midi Thru is no option anyway when using bidirectional panels.
Edit: I forgot – you have to select “input from host to comparator”. “Input from host” does not work resp. is useless.
Much appreciated.
Yep, that all works, as I’d already discovered (except I don’t need to use ‘host to comparator’ – ‘host to output’ works fine for me). Just like you, I can see that the output (presumably sysex) from Ctrlr is somehow intercepted by Cubase and blocked when using ‘output to plugin host’. This is the sticking point.
I can get it working by setting the port in Ctrlr directly – no problem with that, but it will not work if I have the port used anywhere else in Cubase, or if I simply name the port in MIDI Device Manager. This just isn’t tenable for me. Ctrlr is effectively wanting exclusive use of the port and that isn’t realistic. If I temporarily remove the port references in Cubase to get Ctrlr working, then Cubase can’t make use of the port that Ctrlr has snatched from it. Sigh…
It looks like I will have to abandon this and see if I can come up with some other method for controlling my V4 MKS-70. Maybe there’s an iPad app I can use.
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.
in Reaper the Ctrlr plugin does work almost perfect: NO selection of any ports needed! In other words, you leave the Ctrlr midi input and output device selection BLANK. Just enable input from host and output to host and set the thru setting to host to host.
Great info. I really do appreciate the help from you all here!
Yes, that’s definitely the option I feel I need to use, but it simply doesn’t work. I’m happy that Ctrlr is outputting the data from the panel, but Cubase is somehow intercepting it and preventing it reaching outside the Instrument. I think the problem really is Cubase, but I’m jiggered if I can figure out a way round it – I’ve tried resetting Cubase Remote Control settings for the Instrument (which are responding to Ctrlr’s data), but to no avail.
I had a feeling someone would tell me it works in Reaper! Lol! Unfortunately, although I do use Reaper for field recordings, I do all my studio and mix work in Cubase.
FWIW I also use a trio of MOTU MIDI Express 128s.
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.
To my knowledge when you talk about the plugin version of Ctrlr it does not matter if you have a multiclient capable midi interface. The DAW and the Ctrlr plugin won’t ever be able to use both the same port.
Yes they can – I’ve proved that. It works. It’s just that I can’t use MDM to name the ports. Again, this is using the Ctrlr plug-in – not as a separate ‘app’.
It’s simply that ‘output to host’ seems not to be able to get data out to Cubase.
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.
Yes, it is a Windows sharing thing. You are answering your question.
It’s just that Ctrlr cannot access any port that is referenced in Cubase’s MIDI Device Manager. If I remove the reference then Ctrlr accesses the port just fine.
Ctrlr needs it’s own ports, so you have two apps trying to access the same port, Cubase and Ctrlr. If the ports were multi client, you could use the same port with Cubase and Ctrlr.
I can’t help you with Cubase, but have you tried to use “input from plugin host” and “output to plugin host” and not selecting any midi in/out device?
I’m *am* trying to use ‘input from host’ and ‘output to host’, but no data is coming out of Ctrlr in that mode.
It honestly isn’t a Windows sharing thing – I’ve proved that. I definitely *can* use ports more than once. That really isn’t the problem. I can prove this with any port that is not referenced in MIDI Device Manager. Cubase can access the same port as Ctrlr this way and everything works fine. It’s just that I can’t name my instruments without using MDM – I have to remember the ports and with 24 MIDI ports that’s a bit galling.
I’m using Ctrlr as a plug-in, not as a separate app.
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.
Thanks for your thoughts, guys.
It’s not a MIDI Channel problem – I can make the panel work in standalone, and it also works if I use a MIDI port not referenced in MIDI Device Manager.
It’s not a Windows port sharing problem. I definitely CAN share ports inside Cubase. I am only using one ‘app’ – Cubase. It’s just that Ctrlr (as a plug-in – I’m not running it separately) cannot access any port that is referenced in Cubase’s MIDI Device Manager. If I remove the reference then Ctrlr accesses the port just fine. Removing the port in Cubase isn’t an option anyway – I then wouldn’t be able to play the instrument in Cubase.
If I use a port that *isn’t* defined in MIDI Device Manager, then Ctrlr works perfectly – and that port can be in use multiple times. So it’s definitely not a Windows sharing thing – just a specific conflict between MIDI Device Manager and Ctrlr.
I could remove the MIDI Device Manager reference, but then I lose my ability to access hardware instruments by name. I’m not very happy with this prospect. That’s why I would prefer to use the ‘output to host’ option from Ctrlr – which doesn’t work at all. But I’m narrowing it down…
When using the Ctrlr ‘output to host’ option – it looks like Cubase is intercepting the data generated by the Ctrlr panel. For one example, when I move the VCF Frequency control in the MKS-80 Ctrlr panel, one of the Quick Control knobs in the Cubase Instrument window also moves. This suggests that Ctrlr is generating the data, and Cubase is aware of it, but that data is not being allowed to escape from the instrument.
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.
Well, I’ve partly answered my own question. It seems the block on using a port is caused by my having the port assigned in Cubase’s ‘MIDI Devices’ panel. Anything allocated in there is rendered unavailable to Ctrlr.
This said, it doesn’t explain why the ticked option to ‘Output to plugin host’ doesn’t seem to work – at least under Cubase. Surely this option should render all the port selecting unnecessary?
I’m none too happy about breaking my Cubase ‘MIDI Devices’ settings, so it’s looking like it’s a dead end for me.
It’s a pity, because I’m waiting on a ‘Vecovened’ V4 MKS-70 and I though Ctrlr was going to be my white knight of editing for it.
Again, I’m happy to take advice…
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.
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This reply was modified 3 years, 9 months ago by
