Working standalone, but not in Cubase as plugin

[Possemo]

Ok, I see your points. But if I’d were you I would use two tones per patch otherwise you just have a JX-8P. Well, in whole mode you get a 12 Voice JX-8P. There are some interesting sounds you can get when you layer two tones in dual mode.
Just out of curiosity – why would be Ctrlr standalone no option for you? Do you need parameter automation that badly? Because there is no other advantage when using my panel. There will be a new version that will save its state into the DAW project file. For me this is the biggest advantage of the plugin version. You won’t have to now which patch you used for a given track. But this new version will take some time until it is finished as I have little spare time and I am still working on the panel for the Moog Source atm.

[The Elf]

TBH the reason I first bought an MKS-70 *was* as a rack-mounting JX-8P (which it replaced)! I’ve never needed it to be any more than that. The doubled voice count was (and remains) a huge plus, and I’d trade that for dual Tones every time.

When I first discovered the horrors of shared Tones I knew I was never going to use them. From that point my MKS-70 has remained one Patch, one Tone. I’ve actually met a few other owners who’ve done the same. Interestingly, the JP-80×0 finally did things properly and gave us independent Tones within Patches, but with the System 8 Roland back-pedalled to shared Tones again, which is crazy IMO!

If I ever felt the need to use a dual Tone sound I could use one of the 14 last Patch locations and only layer unedited Tones. I can’t see me doing that, though.

I may use Ctrtr in standalone up to a point, but I often send small song-specific adjustments to my synths in Cubase. I will call up a preset, then have Cubase make a couple of adjustments on playback. It means I don’t have to save every small adjustment as a new Tone/Patch. I don’t want to have to leap in and out of Cubase to make these edits on the fly.

It would be very difficult to exploit the new abilities of V4 without an editor. I’m really looking forward to making use of my V4 and your excellent panel!

An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

[Possemo]

I understand. As you won’t use the lower tone my panel may be a bit over the top as it shows both tones of a patch at once. Well if you monitor is big enough it shouldn’t be a problem. Btw the Vecoven pwm-mod is a lot of work. On the MKS-70 it is even harder as there is not a lot of free space in the case. Some people attached the pwm boards to the voice boards. I didn’t got this way on mine as I didn’t felt comfortable glueing boards together. I hope your synth will be modded sucessfully.

[sergeeo]

Hey!

I’ve had a similar problem with other panel. AFAIK the multiclient MIDI ports are the problem in Windows. I’ve even tried multiclient drivers for my midi interface and… they just didn’t work.

I’ve found two different solutions:

1. Installing a virtual midi device such as LoopBe and using the panel in standalone mode. You can route your midi channels in Cubase to LoopBe input, and in your panel, route the LoopBe out as your input device. This solution is a bit “clumsy” as I’ve noticed a bit extra latency.

2. Deactivate the MIDI ports where your device is connected in Cubase. Just go to MIDI PORT SETUP menu and set those input/output ports as non visible. Then load your plug-in and let it connect directly to your device. This has been my favourite solution. You have to do this before trying to connect the plug-in 🙂

Hope this helps

• This reply was modified 6 years ago by sergeeo.
• This reply was modified 6 years ago by sergeeo.

[The Elf]

Thanks for the advice.

Option 2 is a non-starter for me, as I explained above. I can’t have Ctrlr taking MIDI ports away from Cubase. It means I can’t name instruments in MIDI Device Manager, and it means I can’t use multiple tracks addressing a single port.

Option 1 is something my brain has toyed with, but I’ve put it aside for the moment. The specific panel I need to use (MKS-70 V4) relies on MIDI Controllers, rather than sysex, so I should be fine using Ctrlr as-is.

An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

[sergeeo]

Yep that’s the point, you can’t use that ports from the plug-in because they’re still visible to your Cubase project! First you have to set those ports as “non-visible”, and then you access them through the plug-in. You don’t need the MIDI DEVICE MANAGER for anything.

I’ve added a screenshot to let you see what you should unmark (my version is in Spanish, but you’ll recognize the menu).

Lemme know if this works for you.

PS: If you’ve installed your device using the MIDI DEVICE MANAGER, my advice is to uninstall it and use your device the way I’ve explained.

PS2: Sorry, I’ve read the whole thread n_n If you don’t want to keep a dedicated port to that synth, I guess this isn’t useful for you.

• This reply was modified 6 years ago by sergeeo.
• This reply was modified 6 years ago by sergeeo.

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[The Elf]

I assure you that I do understand, but I absolutely *don’t* want to make the ports unavailable to Cubase. And I most definitely *do* want to use MIDI Device Manager. Without MDM I have to remember ports and I have too many to be mucking around like that. Plus once Ctrlr has control of the port I can’t use a second MIDI Track to access the port that Ctrlr has commandeered.

It really doesn’t work for me. I’m happier with the solution I have.

An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

[The Elf]

Thought I’d give you the courtesy of a follow-up,,,

What can I say? Thank you so much for this panel!

It really does make all the difference to the Vecoven upgrade. The upgrade makes the MKS-70 the synth it always should have been and your Ctrlr panel makes it actually USABLE. The layout is excellent, and it is legible, even to these tired old eyes. So clever to be able to invert the envelope displays.

I’ll admit I’m baffled by the librarian – I’ve tried to load banks in, but all it has done is wipe what was there and the MKS-70 does nothing in response, apart a quick blink of its MIDI light. I also don’t see how to load the panel with the current Patch from the MKS-70. This is in standalone mode, of course.

The main thing to say is well done, and a huge THANKS! I’m in your debt.

An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

[Possemo]

Thanks for your credits. I will check the librarian. Last time I used it it worked flawlessly. Do you have the flash memory upgrade? I don’t have it therefore I cannot test it. Maybe the flash memory behaves differently. I am planning to upgrade the panel with my latest know-how. The plugin will be able to save its state within the DAW project and there will be some other improvements. While I’m on it I will add a configurable send-delay for bank transfers. On the Matrix-1000 panel some people needed this in order to get it working correctly.

I agree that you absolutely need an editor for the Super-JX. The many additions of Vecoven v4 make it even more indispensable. Being able to assign 4 different envelopes and 2 LFOs either normal or inverted to many modules is great but without a visual interface you will never know what you are doing. I was astonished how few people with Vecoven v4 do care about the panel. On the facebook group there were about 3 to 5 people who showed some interest in the panel. Then someone made a template for the BCR-2000 – dozens of people bought a BCR-2000 because of that… well no problem I made the panel for myself and the few people who want to know what they are doing when creating a patch on the Super-JX 😉

[The Elf]

Yes, I do have the 32 internal bank (flash module?) upgrade as well (when I decided to go for the upgrade I decided to go for the whole shebang!). Maybe that is the thing making the difference, as you say. FWIW I collected this in a discussion with Fred:
Is it possible to change the flash bank number from midi message? I have a few sounds spread across multiple banks and need to switch between them across the song.
Fred: Yes, you can send a midi control message (bank select 0x00), parameter is 0..15 (M1024 external cartridge) or 16..47 (flash module).

I’m not sure whether this is relevant – I would have thought that your librarian should get a good response for a bank dump request, regardless of which bank is currently in play.

Anyway, I’m happy to be your guinea pig, if you need one.

I also don’t get the BCR-2000 thing. A physical controller is fine, but with the additional parameters of a V4 MKS you need some visual cues to help you navigate, and even an overlay isn’t going to help in that respect.

I’ve put my own toe in the water with MIDI Designer Pro – I’ve managed to sweep the cut-off and resonance from an X-Y pad… :o)

An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

[Possemo]

So you say receiving banks from the synth does not work? I thought you are talking about sending banks to the synth. I think receiving should work no matter what memory expansion you have. With a normal M-64C cartridge selecting patches is very simple: program change from 0 to 63 are the 64 internal patches, pc from 64 to 127 are used for the 64 cartridge patches. My “Get Bank” procedure is working like this – get patch 0 to 63 one by one when selecting “Get Int”. This also works with the M-1024C cartridge. You will get the actually selected bank when fetching patch 64 to 127 by pushing “Get Card”.

I will look into this on the next weekend.

There is already an editor made with MIDI Designer:
https://mididesigner.com/qa/4116/layout-roland-jx-10-mks-70-with-vecoven-pwm-kit
I guess it is not bidirectional but it doesn’t look too bad.

I do have an old Doepfer “Drehbank”. I agree that it can be fun to twist knobs, but I don’t need more than a few parameters for this – e.g. cutoff, reso and maybe ADSR of one env. A completely different thing compared to designing patches.

[The Elf]

All working now!

The MKS-70 was set to disallow Program Change messages. All sorted now.

I can’t tell you how grateful I am for all your help and advice. If you can get a PM to me I’ll send you a couple of CDs as a thank you.

An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

[rotomtom]

My 2cents: Here’s a low-latency MIDI approach with Ctrlr VST in Cubase/Nuendo
You need:
1. Windows 10 64Bit
2. Steinberg Cubase/Nuendo (works similar in Ableton Live)
3. an Audio Card
4. a MIDI interface with multiclient drivers that ports are connected to your Synth’s MIDI IN and OUT. Plus an additional MIDI IN for your MIDI keyboard
5. a virtual MIDI cable driver like loopMIDI or LoopBe
6. a MIDI router like MIDI-OX (no worries about 32 Bit!)

The setup:
• Open e.g. loopMIDI and create 2 virtual MIDI cables named:
o “to Synth MIDI”
o “from Synth MIDI”
o Close the program (the driver will keep running in the Windows 10 system tray)
• Open MIDI-OX and do following MIDI Device connections/routings:
o Connect “to Synth MIDI” with the MIDI interface MIDI OUT (that is sending to the Synth MIDI IN)
o Connect “from Synth MIDI” with the MIDI interface MIDI IN (that is receiving from the Synth MIDI OUT)
o Keep MIDI-OX running (sometimes when the routing stops or does not function as expected: close the program and restart it. You can do this anytime, even when Cubase/Nuendo is running)
• In Cubase/Nuendo
o Activate the physical MIDI interface driver ports where the external synth is connected to MIDI IN and OUT
o Disable the virtual MIDI port(s) “to Synth MIDI” and “from Synth MIDI” from the Windows MIDI IN and MIDI OUT drivers list (to avoid the risk for feedback loops – note: there is some use to keep this active for internal routing purposes, but this would be a different topic to discuss. If you want to keep then at least remove the check at “All MIDI inputs” for that virtual MIDI ports. Tip: disable also the “All Midi Input” setting of the physical Midi Interface MIDI IN the synth is sending to, just in case to avoid feedback loops).
o Create a Midi Device called “Synth” in Studio\Options\Midi Devices (chose whatever name you want)
o Create an External Instrument in Studio\Audio Connections named “Synth” (chose whatever name you want)
 Connect it to your Audio Card AUDIO IN
 Connect it to the “Synth” MIDI Device
 Tip: you can adjust the latency compensation in ms. Use a one-bar MIDI event with 16th quantized notes and a play a percussive dry sound at your Synth at 60 bpm from that MIDI event in an Instrument Track playing the External Instrument “Synth”. Record the incoming audio from the synth in a different audio track. Open the audio event, zoom in and check the delay the recording lands from the note’s original positions (switch the grit to “Seconds”). Adjust the delay compensation of your External Instrument “Synth” accordingly in Audio Connections/External Instruments. Note: the MIDI delay will usually vary from take to take. This is “normal” due to the serial and slow MIDI protocol and latency of your synth and sometimes bad Karma. So: adjust to a best compromise.
o Create an Instrument Track 1 with Ctrlr-VST
 in the Ctrlr Plugin
• connect the virtual MIDI cables
o MIDI OUT: “to Synth MIDI”
o MIDI IN: “from Synth MIDI”
• Set MIDI Plugin Options: Input from host to comparator: on
 Enable Automation Read+Write
  all Ctrlr movements will be recorded/played/managed in and from this track with Automation
 No MIDI notes will be played here (of yourse you can, but you have to enable Midi Thru / Plugin Host to Output Device. Expect a slightly longer latency than using the physical MIDI interface driver (ca 1-3ms depending on your PC/system).
o Create an Instrument Track 2 with the External Instrument “Synth”
 Set “Record Enable“ (Midi Thru) and connect your Keyboard to the MIDI IN of this track (use a separate additional MIDI interface port for this keyboard).
 Now you can play your external Synth at lowest latency.
 As by design of an External Instrument Track, you can hear your Synth’s audio coming in thru your Audio Card and you can use MIDI- and Audio-Plugins here.
 Do all MIDI notes recording in this track and since it’s an External Instrument you can record / bounce the audio from your synth according to the MIDI events in this track.

If you have other ideas, just reply and add your thoughts and experiences.

Have fun ?!

[Possemo]

This is interesting, but let me ask – what is the advantage using virtual ports and midiox?

[rotomtom]

Advantages:
– low latency performance for MIDI notes to the Synth
– med latency for Controller and SysEx data but maximum routing flexibility:
–use external or standalone editors /library managers simultaneously with Ctrlr VST on the same synth
–use ToucheSE with Ctrlr embedded in Lie driving my MKS-80 if I want to use it this way (Lie is also managed via loopMIDI/MIDI-OX)
–record the SysEx MIDI stream back into an empty MIDI track (enable virtual midi out as MIDI IN device) save the data in a MIDI file for sharing or with a song. or use MIDI OX to manage MIDI data
– And that’s my favorite next to low latency MIDI notes: leverage the benefits of the “External Instrument” feature in Cubase/Nuendo (or simikar in Ableton Live)! So I can easily use within one track all VST-FX, MIDI-FX, Freeze Audio of the track etc. Hassle free and perfect for me.

Bytheway:
I’m using e.g. MomoMueller MKS-80 Ctrlr panel with my little monster. Works similar with other synths.
The only thing I’ struggling:
The loop back from the Synth is not reflected in the panel. So I need external editors. And I love to use the external MPG-80 controller. Right now it’s for programming the temp/play memory of the synth to save the data to the synth internal memory banks. Simultaneously recording the SysEx from the MPG-80 into a PC editor doesn’t work so far, at least I’m still searching for a good solution. (Nerd-mode on) Right now I record 3 different bursts of MIDI SysEx (uppper tone, lower tone, patch) but need to edit the HEX data of the tone bursts to mark them as as upper or lower tone. Works ok-ish (place it on a MIDI track to load the sound before the next notes. (nerd-mode off 😉
Any ideas are welcome :)!

[The Elf]

I gave up on all this and switched to MIDI Designer Pro. In there I’ve created editor Layouts that not only allow me to edit, but that also update the on-screen controls automatically when I change patches from the MKS-80. It also allows me to store and recall patches outside of the synth.

It’s all much, much easier.

• This reply was modified 3 years, 9 months ago by The Elf.
• This reply was modified 3 years, 9 months ago by The Elf.

An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

[Possemo]

@rotomtom: yea it is interesting I will look into it (virtual ports and midiox with cubase) when I find the time. Thanks for the info.

@the elf: Hmm, you probably mean, when you turn knobs the correspronding knob in midi-designer updates to display the value. That’s nice but to get real bidirectionality midi-designer would need some kind of scripting language where you can process the sysex-dump. Too bad it has no scripting capabilities, otherwise I would buy a second-hand ipad and would give it a try…

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